Samira Musa is it the recent us plane
crash in Libya a sign that Western
forces intervening there will only
create another catastrophe that was Iraq
okay and I should say also we're we're
completely live here on bbc3 tonight and
here's the very latest line on Libya uh
the Libyan Air Force no longer exists as
a fighting force that is according to
the commander of British aircraft
operating over Libya the Libyan Air
Force no longer exists as a fighting
force let's go to uh
George gallowan first of all well these
kind of hubis boastings are almost
guaranteed to uh backfire um if uh
another American plane comes down uh
we'll know that that's not quite as true
as the military spokesman today said
even worse after the American plane came
down and the villagers near Benghazi who
came out to rescue the American Pilots
six of them were shot and once had his
arm amputated
by the American Commandos uh who didn't
understand their uh intentions which
just goes to show the law of unintended
consequences no military plan survives
first contact with the Enemy and this
one won't either it's going nowhere it's
costing us3 million a day on the day
that the Tory Chancellor laid waste to
hundreds of thousands of British jobs
butchered more British Public Services
it turns out we've got 3 million a day
to spend throwing Tomahawk cruise
missiles at a million dollars a time a
North African country and Richard said
it's the first time we've been in
military action since Iraq that long huh
but actually we've been in military
action every day since Iraq it's called
Afghanistan we're already in an
up comment uh a new uh theater of war
but you mentioned the six people that
were shot it is worth saying that the
father of the boy who may have to have
his leg amputated has said that he he
has forgiven the Americans because
better him than me I wouldn't forgive
them if they shot my son's leg off would
you no but it's look it's an important
point he wants them there he thinks
they're doing an important job he thinks
it's necessary well he's probably not
got much of a choice uh over that but
his son's leg was shot off six other
people were shot I'm just making the
point that when you're throwing High
explosives around the place don't
pretend that there's anything forensic
about it that there's anything targeted
about it I've been in enough medical
wards where the victims of surgical
Precision bombing have been taken per
chance to die to know that all this
propagandistic Guff about military
weaponry is just one of the big lies
this Century George we shouldn't be
there at all not at all we are the
colonial power that used to govern in
these places we are the last people in
the world who should be invading and uh
uh and bombing other people it's an
enormous International Coalition just a
enormous is it well name names well well
let me add that in a moment an audience
and to come in and we
will just be absolutely clear you would
have left the people of Benghazi to
their fate the tanks were on the
outskirts of Benghazi Gaddafi said he
would go house to house door to door and
show these people no mercy and you would
have left them to die don't give me that
the same people give that people that
are bombing for human rights in Libya
are killing people in Pakistan and
Afghanistan on a daily basis and you
just you've just brought into your vast
Coalition Saudi Arabia the Saudi Arabian
Air Force bombing for human rights when
it's killing its own demonstrators and
has just invaded bahin to kill theirs so
the answer your hypocrisy it's absolute
hypoc perfectly valid point absolute
hypoc the answer is some people can be
killed other people have to be saved I
wonder what the difference is it's got
three letters it begins with o it ends
an l and the middle letter is
I so therefore the answer is yes you
would have left the people of Benghazi
to their fate I wouldn't have asked
armed Gaddafi in the first place when I
was saying when I was telling you when I
was telling the BBC that Gaddafi was the
same criminal today as he was last year
and 10 years before the BBC was singing
off the same H sheet as Tony Blair and
the labor government Minister different
point it's not a he wouldn't have his
tanks if we hadn't sold them to him he
wouldn't have the training of these
Special Forces if we hadn't trained them
that happened you have to accept that
happened and there we had an urgent
situation where the tanks were on the
outskirts of the Town yeah you'd Le
1,600 Palestinians were killed to death
from the sky by Israel and you never
asked for a nfly Zone once and you never
will ask for a norly Zone
once hello there good evening yeah um I
understand George's points about the
disparity and terms of um foreign policy
with uh uh macabi Israel Saudi Arabia
but I'd like him to actually answer the
question and what would you do what what
what should be done should they should
no forces have gone in or should forces
have gone in from another country or
some other country but what would Arabs
Arabs have a right to be there Egypt has
a right to be there them has to be there
I called on them uh to open their
borders right at the start of this
revolution I'm a supporter of the Libyan
Revolution before David Avid Cameron
supported him the difference is I'm a
supporter of all the Arab revolutions he
definitely
isn't libia's oil is less than 2% of the
world's oil supp she obviously doesn't
know the price of oil she can what only
two have you any idea what the value of
2% ofil and it's not true to say that we
would only send forces to help places
that have oil because you just need to
look at someone like Sierra Leon we made
a huge difference before we get
before we get stared about the security
Council the most populous countries in
the world did not vote for this
resolution against it either India China
Russia they gave approval they they gave
it tacit approval Germany turkey China
Russia are and India are all against
this against they have all been
denouncing it in the days that well
because they did not believe that they
were abstaining on something that
involved the hling of hundreds hundreds
of cruise missiles at a million dollar a
time a broken back
country actually the Russian president
and prime minister actually are odds
with each other so haven't completely
denounced it let's just go to the
audience gentleman in the middle there
with the black hair hello many of
speakers point out how we as a country
and Nation have denounced to have
encouraged these dictators and propped
them up we have perhaps sold them
weapons we have perhaps intervened in
their countries in the past and yet in
the same breath they say that we should
not intervene simply because it is
perhaps too expensive or perhaps we have
no role in this surely we should be
given the chance in fact we have the
obligation to at least make do make
right what we have made wrong to try
to but we're still we're still propping
up the dictators Saudi Arabia is propped
up by us but it would fall down now
we''ve had people in Li is talking you
have Thrice mentioned the Arab League
the Arab League is a collection of
dictatorships who are mostly involved in
killing their own democracy
protesters and you want us to say it's a
good idea because the Arab leades in
favor of it the Arab League there's not
a single democratic government in the
entire Arab League look at and half of
them are killing the else get
word look at the uprisings George across
North Africa in the Middle East
uh if the rest of the world uh hadn't if
that Coalition had not intervened in
Libya and Gaddafi had been allowed to
completely suppress and kill those
Rebels what message would that have sent
to other dictators the are sending to
all the other dictatorships you can kill
your people if you like no we don't yes
we are what did we say against Saudi
Arabia killing its own people what do we
say about Saudi Arabia invading bahin
last Friday in order to kill the people
of bahin nothing at all let's go the
audience let go the AUD let's go the
audience right blue blaz what is the
difference between the situation in
Libya uh and the situation that was in
China in the TM men Square protest and
also the guangju democratization
movement in Korea in 1980 uh they both
started off as a civilized movement
which ended in bloody massacre oh let me
add another one in this country in
Northern Ireland when British troops
shot dead 14 innocent protesters none of
whom was carrying a weapon and we then
covered it up for 40 years and then
finally almost half a century later
David Cameron apologized would we have
supported would we have
supported foreign troops intervening in
Northern Ireland to protect you're
talking about Bloody Sunday you were
involved in Norther you were involved in
Northern irand six tours I did in
Northern Ireland to protect the people I
lost soldiers in Northern Ireland yes
bloody Sunday was a mistake I entirely
agree with it I sent look
it was a crime of course it was let me
speak
though it took too long I knew at the
time I was on the streets that it was a
crime I accept that totally reject the
uh comparisons between Rwanda and
Balkans what happened in the Balkans
were the presence of genocidal Maniacs
Gaddafi is many things but he's not a
genocidal Maniac what's happening in the
Arab world are revolutions not genocidal
Maniacs the people who took up arms have
made the conscious choice to sacrifice
their lives or put their lives at risk
to overthrow dictators but if if if when
GFI said he would go door too house to
house and show no mercy to the people of
Benghazi all right not technically a
genocide but not that different to a
genocide
well look you keep saying that as a
matter of fact the voice of America that
well-known Gaddafi radio station uh has
published the text of what Gaddafi said
and it was not what you're saying it was
in any case it was hot air the Libyan
regime is a ramshackle disorganized
shambles as my two new friends the
experts from the Middle East uh will uh
be able to testify but it's Prett it's a
pretty deadly shambles if you happen to
be in Benghazi yes indeed but the
Gaddafi had no means to go house to
house and kill a million people and
neither in fact according to the voice
of America did he say so but the young
man's made the point this is an armed
uprising an and Uprising by the way that
miraculously got its hand on airplanes
and and
tanks some revolutionaries I wonder
where they got them from they rose up
and they're contesting with Gaddafi for
state power in Libya I'm with them I'm I
want Gaddafi out whatever happens but
it's not the same thing as being on the
Hills above Saro and raining down death
and destruction on entirely innocent
individual when he say it's hot air
George Gallow you think perh G would
have shown Mercy he would have shown
Mercy to the rebels doesn't have the
means to conquer Benghazi this war this
war by the way in which we've seen
surprisingly few pictures I wonder why
is actually being fought between very
small groups of people on each side
let's not paint this as if this was uh
the Battle of ksk this is a ramsh
primitive society in which small groups
of people are fighting each other for
state power we're moving on thank you
let's uh